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williamthebloody


Age: 35
Sex: M
Location: The Pandorica
Country: United Kingdom

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Guns Sunday, July 22, 2012

By now, you'll all be very much aware of the shooting at the Dark Knight Rises midnight screening on Friday. Having fired guns as a member of the army Cadet Force, I have a deep and abiding respect for them. I also am of the belief that access to weapons should be severely limited and it is in no way a right, human or otherwise, to possess them.

The arguments for the other side are numerous and in this entry, I hope to de-construct them.

The first argument given is that incidents like this are actually a reason to slacken gun laws as if people in the audience had weapons with them, the guy would have been stopped earlier. Not in this case, as the perpetrator was wearing full body armour.

I have yet to see any statistical information that proves this to be the case and would very much like to do so.

The next argument is that stricter gun control laws don't work, will not work and have never worked. Ever.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would very much like to disagree with that.

In the aftermath of Dunblane, which was carried out by someone with a gun licence and using legally owned weapons, there was an investigation into gun ownership in the UK. This lead to severe, severe tightening of limits on who could own a gun license, how often it had to be renewed, the circumstances in which it could be revoked, the purchase, storage and registering of firearms and where and when they could be fired (meaning the shooting events at this years Olympics and the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2 years time have to be held at a police shooting range as anywhere else would be illegal).

You tell me, how do you think that's working out for us?

An additional argument to this is that Switzerland has higher gun ownership than the US and they have fewer incidents like this. So, that can't be because of strict gun control laws, right?

The reason gun ownership in Switzerland is so high is because they do not have a standing army as we would recognise it. There, men get military training at about the age of 20 and are reserve military members till they turn 30 (34 for officers). Part of this includes keeping their service weapon at home. After this, they can keep the weapon as long as they return it for a brief period so it can be converted to semi-auto, instead of full automatic, use.

To purchase a gun outside of this, you need a permit, which allows the holder to own 3 guns. Certain guns and add ons (such as silencers) are illegal. All guns must be registered and have a serial number. There are restrictions on the transportation of weapons and on the sale of ammunition (for example, ammunition purchased at a range can only be used there).

So, yeah, exactly like in the States.

The next argument is that these people are going to break the law regardless, so why bother? The new poster boy for this particular argument is Anders Behring Breivik. Norway, the argument goes, has strict gun control laws and it didn't stop him. The same will happen here so don't bother.

Really? That's your argument? Of course people bent on breaking the law will do so regardless of whether or not parts of the build up to that act are illegal. That would be why we call them criminals and spend tax payers money to find, arrest, charge and prosecute these people.

Besides, going by that argument, that means that there is no need for laws against: murder, assault, rape, incest, paedophilia, child pornography, shoplifting, driving under the influence, the purchase, selling, distribution, possession and consuming of illegal narcotics and age restrictions on films, television programming, books, magazines, music, computer games, the purchase and operation of automotive vehicles, tobacco and other smoking related products and alcohol.

In fact, why bother with laws at all? Save billions in taxes and do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

Pretty sure I heard that last bit somewhere.

Besides, 'they have one so I want one' is an argument that usually dies out in childhood.

Then we get to the strict constitutionalists. The ones who argue that the Second Amendment protects the right to bear arms. Let's look at that:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Fair point. Does the US have a well armed militia? (For an example of a militia, look at Switzerland. It's what they call their army.)

People point out that the Founding Fathers, in their infinite wisdom, didn't actually define arms. Which is just as well for the people making this argument, as if they did, Americans would probably have the right to own a musket.

But apparently, you can't outlaw any weapon as it's against the Constitution. In that case, I have a question: can Nessa monster buy and own a nuclear missile?

A nuke is an arm, in fact it is the ultimate armament at the moment. The US is recognised as a nuclear power and she is therefore not a new state gaining this capability, neither, obviously, is she a rogue nation. (Unless there's something you're not telling me honey.) She is a US citizen, born and raised in Minnesota and lived there all her life, except when she moved away for college, moving back afterwards.

The Constitution, I keep getting told, affords her the right to bear arms and that there is no definition as to what that entails. So, I ask again, why can my girlfriend not own a nuclear missile?

Or perhaps it is the case that there are some things that need to be strictly, severely controlled and regulated and perhaps guns, which by design and nature only exist to kill, should be one of them.

Will



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If I may quote something I retweeted: "Glad to see everyone's up on their high horse about gun control today instead of combating mental illness." I state again: Guns and media DO NOT cause this kind of violence; extreme mental illness does. Have you ever considered that gun crime is so low in the UK because the mentally-ill over there have access to the care they need, because [cont'd] [Tender Lumpling] 7/22/2012 4:21:37 PM
of the UK's single-payer system? If the US had a single-payer health care system (and there's no good reason that we don't, except our dumber-than-hollow-rocks GOP representatives), things like this might never happen, because the illness necessary for them to happen would be treated and controlled.

And to extend your "extreme restriction and regulation" argument: Do you extend it to [cont'd] [Tender Lumpling]
7/22/2012 4:23:58 PM
people like me, who can see a situation in which I MIGHT have to use a gun for my own personal safety? And that if stopping someone from raping, robbing, or murdering me would require me to shoot to kill, I would, and with no hesitation? Because by that argument, there's no difference between someone who uses a gun for murder and one who uses it to ensure their personal safety. ~ [Tender Lumpling] 7/22/2012 4:25:51 PM
now you're making me want a nuclear missile ... [tattoosandstilettos] 7/22/2012 4:30:47 PM
ryn Okay, so extend the argument further: Anything that *could* be used as an instrument of murder is hereby outlawed. Scissors, knives, screwdrivers, cars, tin can lids, the Sunday New York Times, and people with really big hands. People being robbed, raped, and murdered will just have to sit there and take it, because fighting back is effectively outlawed. Parents will be forced to watch... [Tender Lumpling] 7/22/2012 4:58:02 PM
as psychotic child-killers do what they do best to their children.

Sound like a world you'd like to live in?

If you think guns should be restricted or outlawed, that's fine. But don't tell *me* I don't have the right to protect myself because it doesn't occur to you that *not* everyone who owns a gun isn't secretly looking for an excuse to use it. ~ [Tender Lumpling]
7/22/2012 4:59:31 PM
In addition, the "Second Amendment is misinterpreted" argument is wrong, too. The Founding Fathers intended the "well-regulated Militia" to be the average citizen who would, when the time came, take up arms against the government. In effect, Americans were given the right to violently overthrow our own government if it became tyrannical. Of course, the regular military would fight that, [cont'd] [Tender Lumpling] 7/22/2012 5:03:28 PM
as well they should; any military's job is to keep its country and its country's government safe and intact. Again, don't blame *me* or anyone else who supports the Second Amendment because sick people take it out of the context in which it was meant. ~ [Tender Lumpling] 7/22/2012 5:04:25 PM
They do have one good point. The problem is people. Specifically, the people who really really have to have guns. [NotKieran] 7/22/2012 7:55:54 PM
Having watched that movie, I felt like going on a rampage myself. Gawd it was dissappinting.
I have fired a gun illegally. I shot a tree with my mates Dads pistol. It was one of the most terrifying experiences of my life and for weeks afterwards I was terrified the police would have heard the shot, investigated, done ballistics and somehow caught me. [Rodge]
7/22/2012 7:58:17 PM
ryn: I thought agnostic was not saying there was or wasn't cus there was no proof of either?
I used to say I was agnostic but I don't really like that word, lol.

Ordinary people don't need the right to own a gun. The 2nd amendment is outdated, unnecessary & I don't know how many more incidents like this there has to be before America realises it's just plain dangerous. I just don't get it! [Junk.]
7/22/2012 8:08:01 PM
Here in Canada it's illegal to own a gun without a permit and guns are supposedly hard to get, and yet even here I'm always reading about shootings. People want guns, they get them. The gun isn't the problem it is the people. That said, I agree that the states is way too lenient on the bearing of arms. Normal everyday citizens should have no need of them.  [Lonesome Kitten] 7/22/2012 8:21:26 PM
*thumbs up* [Mad Twins Films] 7/22/2012 9:36:18 PM
Body armor isn't magical; I haven't heard what level of armor he was wearing but I doubt he had ceramic plates on and if he did they'll only stand up to a few shots, depending on the caliber, which are still going to bust him up and slow or cripple him. Even then, if he were shot from the armor does nothing. The helmet was pointless as they're designed for shrapnel and debris. The throat and [killyourself345] 7/22/2012 11:03:21 PM
crotch protectors were equally as pointless. The only thing all that shit did was make him look intimidating and it's allowed for the media to further sensationalize this.  [killyourself345] 7/22/2012 11:05:12 PM
Other incidents, most notably Columbine, happened during the Brady Bill days. [killyourself345] 7/22/2012 11:10:02 PM
Either way, as sad as it is, I have to disagree that owning a weapon is not a right in this day and age. Our culture sucks, humans are stupid and violent, the government can't protect you, the justice system is fundamentally flawed, and I'll not let some turd harm me or my girl. I'm pretty liberal about most things but that's because I try as hard as I can't to let common sense... [killyourself345] 7/22/2012 11:13:31 PM
...dictate my choices and opinions and not ideology, and this seems like a no brainer to me. Even if every rapist and burglar and mugger and whatever had their guns taken away and were left with bats and knives I'd still want a firearm because people like that aren't something that I'm going to fuck around with. [killyourself345] 7/22/2012 11:16:08 PM
Here in North Dakota if I attempted suicide with a gun, I would have been stripped away of my gun rights.

 [angepls]
7/23/2012 12:09:19 AM
This is one of the most brilliant things I have read on this topic.  [Principassa Pollyana] 7/23/2012 8:41:58 AM
OMG you can't tell Americans that they shouldn't have something. It's against the law!

I have a hand gun locked in a biometric safe in my house. I've never been in a situation at home where I have needed it but it makes me feel safer that it's there. HOWEVER, I do not believe citizens should have access to semi automatic weapons, armor piercing bullets, and other weapons of mass destruction. You don't need an AK47 to protect your home or go hunting with. What do you need armor piercing bullets for? But don't tell American's that because if the military and police can have them, why can't everyone else? USA USA USA USA!!!!  [Miss Adia]
7/23/2012 8:49:55 AM
Really, REALLY well said. Thank you for your insight. [Cibos] 7/23/2012 9:33:02 AM
Really pleased to see this entry as a Reader's Choice. It is the best I have read since the tragedy. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I'm not against people having guns - I'm against people being allowed the buy them in Walmart. It is all about gun control x  [*NightBlossom*]
7/23/2012 9:53:52 AM
I think this is THE best, most rational anti-gun argument I have ever read. I agree with every word you've said. I have no idea what is wrong with this country. In my current state of mind I'm thinking it is crammed full of complete and utter idiots who are also insanely paranoid, not to mention bloodthirsty.

I am going to try very hard not to read the notes you got, because I know what 99% of the US noters will say, and it depresses me beyond belief to know nothing will ever change here, and every time we have a horrific shooting the gun laws just get laxer. Because we need to ALL be armed so we can have massive shootouts and even MORE violent death!!!  [edna million]
7/24/2012 4:26:41 PM
The problem is that LAWS only regulate the "law abiding". When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns, especially over here. The black market is huge and our borders suck.  [schoner engel] 7/25/2012 9:14:04 AM


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