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Sane Wailings
by Atheist Under Ur Bed
Location: Jumpingoutfromtheshadows
  

Agnosticism Reconsidered 2/6/2004


I recently came across these comments in the notes section of an entry Popper posted on 01/27/04:

“. . . ‘AUUB argues that only in the God question are the skeptics forced to provide proof of their assertion. Yet this ignores the common rule of debate; that whoever makes an assertion, either positive or negative, must back it up with some form of proof’ . . . [Popper]

“I don't know about being ‘forced’, but he is right in a way. I've told people I don't believe in aliens, ghosts, etc ...and I've never been questioned. The minute I say I'm an atheist, I'm asked to explain why.” rexie (01/27/2004 1:15:31-1:19:22 PM)

I have repeatedly encountered the same sort of thing rexie is talking about. I suspect most if not all American atheists have. It’s as if belief in any sort of gOd - no matter how strange or absurd that gOd may be - is deemed more acceptable than belief in no gOd at all. This may make social or psychological sense, but it’s extremely difficult for me to see how it makes any kind of objective, logical, scientific sense. People seem to be evaluating the gOd concept using far looser and stranger standards than they use when they evaluate most other concepts. It’s almost as if there’s something about gOd that turns even very bright people into children clutching their security blankets, if not into blathering idiots.

These loose, strange standards are perhaps most obvious when we atheists deal with fanatical theists, but some form of them seems to lurk within even the most reasonable of agnostics.

I’ve discussed agnosticism before, of course - perhaps most notably in entries I posted on 7/17/2000 and 8/12/03. The prevalent yet rarely acknowledged double-standard alluded to by rexie has prompted me to revisit the subject, as has the last chapter in Paul Edwards’s book Reincarnation: A Critical Examination. It seems to me that this double-standard is merely one of the many things I find objectionable about theists while it is perhaps the main thing I find objectionable about agnostics.

First, a note about terminology. According to Philosophy Professor Robert Todd Carroll’s The Skeptic’s Dictionary (John Wiley & Sons, Inc.; 2003), agnosticism is the belief “that it is impossible to know whether God exists. It is often put forth as a middleground between theism and atheism... The agnostic holds that human knowledge is limited to the natural world, that the mind is incapable of knowledge of the supernatural. Understood this way, an agnostic could be either a theist or an atheist.” Or as George H. Smith explains in his Atheism: The Case Against God, “Properly considered, agnosticism is not a third alternative to theism and atheism because it is concerned with a different aspect of religious belief. Theism and atheism refer to the presence or absence of belief in god; agnosticism refers to impossibility of knowledge with regard to god....” (pp. 9-10). The agnostic theist says “There is no evidence that a deity exists, but I choose to believe (or have faith in) a deity’s existence anyway.” The agnostic atheist says “There is no evidence that a deity exists, therefore I do not have sufficient grounds for believing a deity exists, so I don’t - but one might exist anyway.”

I say “The concept of deity doesn’t make sense - it’s vague, ambiguous, empty, and/or self-contradictory. There’s no evidence that deity exists, and there’s no good reason to believe we’re ever going to discover such evidence. When this is the case with regard to virtually any other thing, we quite naturally feel free to say that that thing does not exist. Why should we treat deity any differently? If it’s neither right nor appropriate to conclude deity does not exist, what can we rightly and appropriately declare to be non-existent?”

I realize that this may sound absolute and closed-minded to some. In a very real sense, it is absolute and closed-minded. So what? Calling something absolute and closed-minded is only a valid criticism if one assumes that it’s never right to be absolute or closed-minded. In other words, it’s only a valid criticism if one assumes that there are no absolutes or that one must be open-minded about everything. But assuming this itself seems to be an absolute, closed-minded position - which would seem to entangle one in a fatal self-contradiction. The question becomes: What may we safely be absolute and closed-minded about? To which I reply: Concepts and entities as poorly defined, conceptually absurd, and empirically unproven as gOd.

Many theists, of course, would reply differently. I believe I’ve shown in other entries why they’re wrong to give the replies they do. What I want to address now is how those who call themselves agnostics have replied, and then explain why they, too, are wrong.

Despite what Carroll and Smith say, most of the agnostics I’ve encountered seem to think of agnosticism as a thing quite separate from theism or atheism - a genuine third choice - an oh-so-reasonable “I don’t know.” These agnostics seem to me to be unfortunate victims of social pressures and cultural conditioning at best, and perhaps to be fearful, self-deceived, pseudo-theists at worst. Why? Because they take the gOd concept far more seriously (and evaluate it far more generously) than they do other, similarly flawed concepts. In fact, agnostics seem to give the absurd gOd concept far more serious thought and respect than they give many things that are demonstrably real possibilities. This makes little logical sense and would appear to indicate that the roots of theological agnosticism are to be found not in logic but in something else entirely (such as emotional need or social brainwashing).

I’ll now attempt to put some flesh on these bare-bone charges.

Do agnostics take the absurd gOd concept more seriously and give it more respect than they do other absurd concepts? As noteleaver rexie indicated, I believe the answer is yes. Although I’ve encountered many agnostics who reply “I don’t know” when asked if gOd exists, few, if any, are quite as noncommittal or uncertain when it comes to aliens, ghosts, vampires, elves, pixies, brownies, goblins, trolls, fairies, sprites, imps, mermaids, unicorns, centaurs, dragons, leprechauns, griffins, gremlins, flying monkeys, flying reindeer, Santa, Jack Frost, the Easter Bunny, the Sandman, the Abominable Snowman, Bigfoot, the Boogeyman, or any of the other beings that the vast majority of people seem to easily dismiss out of hand. Why? What reasonable premise allows most if not all of these beings to be ruled out of bounds but allows for gOd to be taken more seriously?


(To be continued...)






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I don't think there is a reasonable premise but I do think that it makes a big difference that people who grow up being told there is a god are at the same time being told there aren't all those other things. I know that now I say "i don't know if there is a god" but I am more hesitant about those other things and I think it's just because I'm only recently moving away from that way of thinking.  [gold dust woman] 2/6/2004 11:33:10 PM
hey! leprechauns DO exist!

lol--i'm still waiting to find my pot o' gold at the end of the rainbow... [ihate George W. Bush]

2/7/2004 12:30:52 AM
*wipes my brow* whew that was close... usually when people start those list, they add in "witches". :D

You forgot flying pigs, BTW :) [~Julie]

2/7/2004 12:40:29 AM
Speaking of logic, last time I checked, assuming something doesn't exist just because there is no proof that it does (especially when evidence that it doesn't exist isn't given) is an informal fallacy, and therefore destroys your conclusion. [shoelesszombie] 2/7/2004 1:00:51 AM
“I don't know about being ‘forced’, but he is right in a way. I've told people I don't believe in aliens, ghosts, etc ...and I've never been questioned. The minute I say I'm an atheist, I'm asked to explain why.”

opposite here  [scottish freya]

2/7/2004 5:59:13 AM
it's funny how i see the little people only in Ireland and after closing time same as the loch ness monster only after closing time coinkydence maybe ? [scottish freya] 2/7/2004 6:01:01 AM
This question has been asked of me, too. While being viewed incredulously, as if I said I rode dinosaurs in my youth... (By the way, you make an impressive fairy tale list, too.) [April Fool] 2/7/2004 10:04:08 AM
I don't think the question is that crazy. I don't ask people why they believe in aliens because I don't want to know, I think I am better off not knowing why. On the other hand if someone says they are an athiest I am curious as to why. If someone says they are morman or they go to a church of God or some other denomination other than the typical ones I question them too. I think its just a.... [long gone] 2/7/2004 11:28:10 AM
curiosity thing. Don't take everything so offensively [long gone] 2/7/2004 11:28:31 AM
Yeah I definately believe in ghosts. Aliens I don't think it matters if they exist or not but I do think they could. I also think there is bibically a possibility of being a parallel universe but if there is it would be evil and there is a way to get to it. Things you don't know. But with ghosts it's like each life force creates a magnetic field capable of being destroyed. Most people don't  [Smile_GOD_luvs_u] 2/7/2004 5:16:21 PM
don't believe in a literal burning Hell. So, a possible personal Hell may be staying on earth forever in a form without a body. They still have ways to comunicate their anger or offer assitence to others however their fate has been determined. [Smile_GOD_luvs_u] 2/7/2004 5:18:02 PM
Smile - What kind of meaningful (and self-aware) form could possibly exist without a body? What would it be? [An Atheist] 2/7/2004 8:49:15 PM
I AM YOUR PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS, FOR I HAPPEN TO BE ONE! [Joe Boo] 2/8/2004 3:08:55 AM
You forgot the true agnostic who says, “There is neither conclusive evidence for, nor conclusive evidence against God’s existence; therefore I withhold judgement on the issue.”  [Popper] 2/8/2004 4:09:56 AM
I made a little quote that goes with this: "There is no such thing as right and wrong, because no one knows for sure." It doesn't say exactly what I want, but hopefully you get what i'm trying to say. I know I'm not an atheist, because I do believe in some things, but I am not sure if I believe in God. My instincs seem to say no, but I'm not sure yet. I do beleive that there is something. see ya. [LOTRfanatic87] 2/8/2004 5:28:05 PM
You forgot the true agnostic who says, “There is neither conclusive evidence for, nor conclusive evidence against God’s existence; therefore I withhold judgement on the issue.” [Popper]

is a true agnostic, agnostic about elves, then? If not, What conclusive evidence is there against the existence of elves? [A Thinking BUM]

2/9/2004 4:26:53 PM
To A Thinking Bum: I don’t know that a true agnostic would even care about elves, but the formula works both ways. In other words, if there isn’t conclusive evidence to prove that elves don’t exist, nor conclusive evidence to prove that they do exist then a true agnostic would withhold judgment on the issue. [Popper] 2/9/2004 6:15:52 PM
I just finished a debate in my diary about this. Whoop Whoop to all you American Atheists&Secular Humanists out there! [SmartAsk24] 2/17/2004 8:40:03 PM
I don't believe in ghosts mostly because I've never seen one. Also, they are illogical. Like g0d, but if I saw g0d I might believe hE exists. Probably not. Like if i thought i saw a ghost. but to go around "believing" in aliens, ghosts, and some random g0d-thing is a waste of time. [JulieCranford] 10/21/2004 9:19:49 PM
Oh, and there's never conclusive evidence for real things (meaning not math, because we made that up). Our senses could be lying to us anyway. We could all be crazy. But we are crazy in a pretty collective way, aren't we? [JulieCranford] 10/21/2004 9:22:19 PM
Whoa whoa whoa... you can keep gOd and Santa, but really... the flying monkeys are real.

*HUG* [Sir_Curtis]

6/25/2007 3:46:59 AM
You forgot the true agnostic who says, “There is neither conclusive evidence for, nor conclusive evidence against God’s existence; therefore I withhold judgement on the issue.”

This is me...and while I agree with the majority of your arguments, I don't agree with your argument in defense of being "closed-minded and absolute". The holder of a truth doesn't have to be closed-minded and absolute... [Eyes Narrowly Open]

6/30/2008 1:18:52 PM
...since that which you know to be true doesn't need protecting. What's the harm in testing it from time to time? Letting wonder at, say, the inside of a pomegranate, or the vast expanse of beautiful sky, poke - however obnoxiously ;) - at what you "know"?

I don't believe in God (I agree that the idea is coneptually absurd) but neither I nor science can be certain that there is nothing beyond u [Eyes Narrowly Open]

6/30/2008 1:25:37 PM
Whatever science has proved, as far as proof is possible, the source of something, I'm nagged by "But where did that source come from?". Find an explanation, and I'm nagged again by "What about that?". At some point something had to have come from nothing. What that 'nothing' is, who knows.

It would be presumptuous in the extreme for you to suggest that you know ;)

 [Eyes Narrowly Open]

6/30/2008 1:29:31 PM


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