The monster under my bed is your god *
In the story of Abraham and Isaac in the old testament: Assume there is a god, who communicates with you clearly, and assume that he has given you this command. What is your moral DUTY to this being? Did Abraham pass or fail God’s test?
He failed. The ONLY moral answer in the story of Abraham and Isaac is that he failed. Miserably. If Abraham knows this god figure, and he speaks to him constantly and knows his will, and if, as people claim, god is abundantly against human sacrifice (most of the time, except in the case of himself, where he sacrifices himself to himself in order to excuse humankind from their just punnishment, or in the case of Jeptha and his daughter), if I were Abraham, my answer to this being that commanded me to kill my son would be “my god is a loving god, he would never command me to murder my child in sacrifice to him. I don’t know who you think you are, but my god would never do this, so go away – and by the way, where IS my god and why isn’t he protecting me from an evil monsterous tyrant like you in the first place”. God was not testing Abraham to find out what he would do – if god knows everything, he already knew what he would do. He was testing Abraham so ABRAHAM would find out what he would do – and he failed the test.
We’re back to Euthryphro – is something commanded by god because it is moral, or is it moral because it was commanded by god. If you want to Argue that Abraham did the right thing, by attempting to murder his child on the command of god, and that god stopped him just in the nick of time and that proves god’s morality, then you’re coming down on the side that anything is moral if god commands it. Genocide. Slavery. Rape. Sacrifice. Blood. What kind of moral authority would command a loyal follower to commit human sacrifice on his child in the first place? In current times, we think people are crazy when they do this. We hear on the news many cases of people killing their children because “god” told them to. They heard god’s voice, and therefore murdered their offspring. We see these people as crazy. Not heroes. But we exalt this biblical character as a good and righteous man? Seriously?
The bible is full of immorality, full of hatred and injustice and abhorent acts and commands. Christian apologists claim that in the old testament, these acts somehow don’t count, because Christ gave us a new covenant. But Christ himself stated that he came, not to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law, through himself. And who gets to decide what is still valid, and what is not? There are many, many laws in the old testament that are not followed today. Like wearing two different types of clothing together (no cotton-poly blends allowed). Or eating shellfish. Or how you are supposed to have sex, and in what position. HOliness laws. Bathing laws. Murder laws. Slavery laws. You ask a christian today, and they don’t follow them – that’s absurd. But when you ask a christian why they are against homosexuality or equal rights, they run to Leviticus and point to two verses there, amid a million others that they ignore. Or point out the story of Sodom and Gommorah – which have NOTHING to do with homosexuality at all. They claim those to be valid, because they agree with something that they don’t like. Everything else is out, though.
Who gets to make these determinations? Who has the authority?
IF the bible is the infallable, perfect word of god, and it gives us an absolute guide to life and it is all we have to point us to what this god wants – why is it so unclear? Why is it up to each individual or denomination to interprit? There are over 30,000 denominations of people who call themselves “Christians” and none of them agree on matters of doctrine. And most of them are quick to point out that THEY are the ones that are right – and all others are mislead and lost. You would think that if this were god’s one chance to communicate with his creation, he might have been a bit more clear – or issued a version 2.0 – or something. If christians can’t even agree, how are they supposed to spread their faith to non believers who know how to think for themselves and can use logic and reason correctly in order to point out that some of these things don’t make any SENSE. We would not make excuses for any other book, any other history, any other story that we make for this book.
And if you want to say we have to just take it on faith that the bible is true and all the biblical accounts are accurate – why not have to say the same thing for the Koran? Or the book of Mormon? Or a multitude of any other religious holy books out there? What makes yours so special that it is absolutely above reproach, while all others are clearly in error? Because the book itself says so? I’m pretty sure the others say similiar things. Using the thing you’re trying to validate as validation does not work. It’s really old. So what? We have a lot of things that are really old. That doesn’t make them all true. We have the Odyssey and the Illiad. They’re older than the bible. But we know that they are fictional stories and myth – not an account of a god. Why are we willing to apply logic and reason to EVERYTHING but our own particular beliefs?
Do we care if what we believe is true?
I do.
And that’s why I can’t believe it anymore.
What if I’m wrong, and god does exist?
Then I’m wrong. If I were to find out that the god of the bible exists, I would definitely believe. Whether or not I would worship it would be another question entirely. The existance of god does not mean that god is good. Any god that expects or demands worship is not necessarily a good god. Any god that would give us brains to question and discover answers to ANYTHING in the world, except his own existence, which we are just supposed to take on faith is mind blowing.
the character of god is somewhat like a mob boss to me. I’ve heard this analagy before, but find it to be absolutely brilliant. If you do what I tell you to, and worship me and pay me homage appropriately, I’ll protect you, and you’re good. As soon as you don’t, I’m going to come and get you and break your fingers/legs/appendiges. If hell is a real place and I am sent there for an eternity of suffering because I refused to give up thinking, reason and rationality, I will go there knowing and believing that I’m more moral than the being who sent me there.
Just, in part, to play the devils advocate, I think a primary function of most religious texts is to get people thinking and talking about morality. In this case it has succeeded with you. I think the nutbags who point fingers at sinners, demonstrate in front of abortion clinics, vote against gay marriage, or for capital punishment all in the name of morality, would be just as crazy and angryand afraid and amoral if there wasn’t a bible. The thing is many of us are often faced with moral dilemmas daily, folks who need a manual to help em figure it out aren’t that crazy. The bible isn’t quite as clear as insert tab A into Slot B, no, wait, you have to clarify the butter first — but it’s inherently Evil. I don’t think anyone was rooting for Issac getting the axe is all I’m saying. The point might even have been you know what’s right in your heart. It’s not like Abraham was all happy about the sacrifice and it was at a time when human sacrifice was not uncommon. This is several thousand years later and it’s horrifying, at the time it might have horrified other religious adherents that this god of Abraham stopped a perfectly good sacrifice.
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Just, in part, to play the devils advocate, I think a primary function of most religious texts is to get people thinking and talking about morality. In this case it has succeeded with you. I think the nutbags who point fingers at sinners, demonstrate in front of abortion clinics, vote against gay marriage, or for capital punishment all in the name of morality, would be just as crazy and angryand afraid and amoral if there wasn’t a bible. The thing is many of us are often faced with moral dilemmas daily, folks who need a manual to help em figure it out aren’t that crazy. The bible isn’t quite as clear as insert tab A into Slot B, no, wait, you have to clarify the butter first — but it’s inherently Evil. I don’t think anyone was rooting for Issac getting the axe is all I’m saying. The point might even have been you know what’s right in your heart. It’s not like Abraham was all happy about the sacrifice and it was at a time when human sacrifice was not uncommon. This is several thousand years later and it’s horrifying, at the time it might have horrified other religious adherents that this god of Abraham stopped a perfectly good sacrifice.
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Again, I’m being the devils advocate, not an advocate for the bible. Of all the books I’ve read it’s not even in the top twenty of what I found to be a good read. I’d rather people quoted Trout Fishing in America instead of the bible, but what’re ya gonna do?
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Again, I’m being the devils advocate, not an advocate for the bible. Of all the books I’ve read it’s not even in the top twenty of what I found to be a good read. I’d rather people quoted Trout Fishing in America instead of the bible, but what’re ya gonna do?
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ryn; I don’t know, again I haven’t read it ion a while, but the p[remise of the old testament is a history of the Jews. History books are always repugnant and demonstrative of the evil mistakes mankind makes; full of wars and genocide and self righteous sonsabitchs wearing crowns. I assume the reason we teach these things to our kids (American history tends to be mandatory in public schools in thestates and tends to go from one battle to the next) I think, is to show the folly. I’m pretty sure the bible, however, isn’t meant to be taken literally, at least not in the way that we were heros for killing a bunch of British soldiers to claim this land as our own even though it was already occupied by a third party who we were heros for killing off next.
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ryn; I don’t know, again I haven’t read it ion a while, but the p[remise of the old testament is a history of the Jews. History books are always repugnant and demonstrative of the evil mistakes mankind makes; full of wars and genocide and self righteous sonsabitchs wearing crowns. I assume the reason we teach these things to our kids (American history tends to be mandatory in public schools in thestates and tends to go from one battle to the next) I think, is to show the folly. I’m pretty sure the bible, however, isn’t meant to be taken literally, at least not in the way that we were heros for killing a bunch of British soldiers to claim this land as our own even though it was already occupied by a third party who we were heros for killing off next.
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Yeah, a lot of people believe in the lone gunman theory too. I submit people who are willing to do amoral things don’t need encouragement. It’s not like if there hadn’t been a bible the knights Templar wouldn’t have marched on Jerusalem, just like if there wasn’t a playboy there wouldn’t be any rapists. The things nutjobs do to jack themselves up to do evil shit are coincidental, if those things weren’t there, they’d find something else. Neither Porn or Religion makes a perfectly moral person a killer or rapist, killers and rapists just happen to gravitate towrds religion and porn. Not exclusively. There are also some very good people who are religious adherents to the only game in town. There are also people who bite and scratch and are intolerant to the New Testament which is mostly peace and love and hippie shit and reads like a late fifties pop song about young love.
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Yeah, a lot of people believe in the lone gunman theory too. I submit people who are willing to do amoral things don’t need encouragement. It’s not like if there hadn’t been a bible the knights Templar wouldn’t have marched on Jerusalem, just like if there wasn’t a playboy there wouldn’t be any rapists. The things nutjobs do to jack themselves up to do evil shit are coincidental, if those things weren’t there, they’d find something else. Neither Porn or Religion makes a perfectly moral person a killer or rapist, killers and rapists just happen to gravitate towrds religion and porn. Not exclusively. There are also some very good people who are religious adherents to the only game in town. There are also people who bite and scratch and are intolerant to the New Testament which is mostly peace and love and hippie shit and reads like a late fifties pop song about young love.
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I think the fundementalist movement in the States is who you’re talking about. They are pretty nuts, and literal, and on the whole not very just in their actions. For some reason the GOP has embraced these nutjobs. I’m agnostic so I can’t tell you what god thinks of em cause I don’t know that I believe in God, but I can’t imagine any compassionate benevolent and sentient being finding much topraise on the general face of the political or theological vanguard of fundamentalism. I don’t think they represent christians, however, anymore than muslim terrorists represent Islam. Idiots read things wrong, loud idiots make a lot of noise about how badly they’ve read things wrong. The humble and just tend to be quiet. Given that most christians I know are humble and quiet I lean towards fundamentalism, at least the noisy kind, as a pack of idiots, neither Representative of the religion nor idiots in general and giving both a bad name.
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I think the fundementalist movement in the States is who you’re talking about. They are pretty nuts, and literal, and on the whole not very just in their actions. For some reason the GOP has embraced these nutjobs. I’m agnostic so I can’t tell you what god thinks of em cause I don’t know that I believe in God, but I can’t imagine any compassionate benevolent and sentient being finding much topraise on the general face of the political or theological vanguard of fundamentalism. I don’t think they represent christians, however, anymore than muslim terrorists represent Islam. Idiots read things wrong, loud idiots make a lot of noise about how badly they’ve read things wrong. The humble and just tend to be quiet. Given that most christians I know are humble and quiet I lean towards fundamentalism, at least the noisy kind, as a pack of idiots, neither Representative of the religion nor idiots in general and giving both a bad name.
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I don’t think that’s necessarily true, the part about the fundies knowing the book. They know the parts that support whatever crusade they are on; for instance ignoring all the dietary restrictions, changing the sabbath (which is pretty much not keeping it holy) and yet they’ll find these little passages they think mean queers are sinners, and make up a whole variety of sexual taboos that don’t even have scripture attached to them. For the most part, best as I remember, the only real sin attached to sex is messing with someones spouse or being someones spouse and messing with someone who ain’t your spouse. Buddhist monks have a reason not to screw, but it’s not a taboo so much as a guideline, succumbing to desire means you ain’t ready to be enlightened past it. though denying it is the same as succumbing; that’s more complicated than don’t fuck around on a spouse. The fundies somehow extrapolated from that that you can only fuck a spouse, your own, and it damn well better be the opposite sex. The quiet and humble christians don’t follow that because it’s not in the book.
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I don’t think that’s necessarily true, the part about the fundies knowing the book. They know the parts that support whatever crusade they are on; for instance ignoring all the dietary restrictions, changing the sabbath (which is pretty much not keeping it holy) and yet they’ll find these little passages they think mean queers are sinners, and make up a whole variety of sexual taboos that don’t even have scripture attached to them. For the most part, best as I remember, the only real sin attached to sex is messing with someones spouse or being someones spouse and messing with someone who ain’t your spouse. Buddhist monks have a reason not to screw, but it’s not a taboo so much as a guideline, succumbing to desire means you ain’t ready to be enlightened past it. though denying it is the same as succumbing; that’s more complicated than don’t fuck around on a spouse. The fundies somehow extrapolated from that that you can only fuck a spouse, your own, and it damn well better be the opposite sex. The quiet and humble christians don’t follow that because it’s not in the book.
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Personally I find a suggestion that I know someones beliefs based on their religious affliation as unjust and likely misguided as saying I know their work ethic based on their color or know their core values based on their nationality. I’m not blatantly saying “Prejudice is Wrong” what I’m saying is it’s incorrect. As modern Americans we tend to think of prejudice only as it applies to civilrights or to a minority. I think white male christians get lumped together all the time. It’s not even statisically likely they share a thread more commopn than gender and skin color let alone socially likely.
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Personally I find a suggestion that I know someones beliefs based on their religious affliation as unjust and likely misguided as saying I know their work ethic based on their color or know their core values based on their nationality. I’m not blatantly saying “Prejudice is Wrong” what I’m saying is it’s incorrect. As modern Americans we tend to think of prejudice only as it applies to civilrights or to a minority. I think white male christians get lumped together all the time. It’s not even statisically likely they share a thread more commopn than gender and skin color let alone socially likely.
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The fundy gay bashers always ignore the story of Ham too. Best asw I recall the story Noah gets drunk and his kid comes in the tent and probably fucks him cause Noah “Knows” what Ham did and banishs him. The thing about that story is God doesn’t do any punishing at all, noah does. Ham is still the head guy in one of the twelve tribes of Judea, the chosen people. So if a fundy wanted to use that passage they’d have to figure that god didn’t mind queers that much. You think that’s the fundy party line?
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The fundy gay bashers always ignore the story of Ham too. Best asw I recall the story Noah gets drunk and his kid comes in the tent and probably fucks him cause Noah “Knows” what Ham did and banishs him. The thing about that story is God doesn’t do any punishing at all, noah does. Ham is still the head guy in one of the twelve tribes of Judea, the chosen people. So if a fundy wanted to use that passage they’d have to figure that god didn’t mind queers that much. You think that’s the fundy party line?
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There are studies and polls out today that indicate that there are more people who believe that the Bible is infallible, and yet more people actually haven’t read the book at all. I understand where you’re trying to come from about Leviticus, you’re talking about people who are reading INTERPRETATIONS of the Bible, not even real translations. And Leviticus, was in fact laws for the CULTIC religion
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There are studies and polls out today that indicate that there are more people who believe that the Bible is infallible, and yet more people actually haven’t read the book at all. I understand where you’re trying to come from about Leviticus, you’re talking about people who are reading INTERPRETATIONS of the Bible, not even real translations. And Leviticus, was in fact laws for the CULTIC religion
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that was practiced by those who lived in Israel (not yet called the Jews, that was a almost a thousand years later), but that even the Jews then had to re-examine their faith and what it meant to follow this God (remember that Judaism wasn’t around, and the Israelites were not monotheistic, until almost 400BCE), after the return from the Babylonian exile. Things changed at that point (538BCE)
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that was practiced by those who lived in Israel (not yet called the Jews, that was a almost a thousand years later), but that even the Jews then had to re-examine their faith and what it meant to follow this God (remember that Judaism wasn’t around, and the Israelites were not monotheistic, until almost 400BCE), after the return from the Babylonian exile. Things changed at that point (538BCE)
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and they had to deal with what it meant for YHWH to be mobile, for their religion to not be centered in Jerusalem, if conversion was even possible. The Bible actually chronicles the development of 3 religions: Israelite cultic traditions, Judaism, and then Christianity. To think it was all one ignores the evolutions that took place. Instead, view the Bible as a revelation, piece by piece…
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and they had to deal with what it meant for YHWH to be mobile, for their religion to not be centered in Jerusalem, if conversion was even possible. The Bible actually chronicles the development of 3 religions: Israelite cultic traditions, Judaism, and then Christianity. To think it was all one ignores the evolutions that took place. Instead, view the Bible as a revelation, piece by piece…
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As much of the Bible is the world’s response to God as it is God talking to the people of the world. And more a narration of what was going on that helped them identify themselves. Different people seek counsel in different books, but the one that has survived the longest happens to be the Bible. if someone else writes a book that is actually as inclusive of human emotions and events as this one,
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As much of the Bible is the world’s response to God as it is God talking to the people of the world. And more a narration of what was going on that helped them identify themselves. Different people seek counsel in different books, but the one that has survived the longest happens to be the Bible. if someone else writes a book that is actually as inclusive of human emotions and events as this one,
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I’m sure millions would read that, too. However, you cannot get all of these stories, all of this information, all of this guidance (if that’s what people are looking for) from another book. That’s one of the great things: there are happy people, sad people, good, bad, ugly, stupid, genius, goofs, manipulators… and at the crux of it, as you said: God sacrificed himself for each of them.
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I’m sure millions would read that, too. However, you cannot get all of these stories, all of this information, all of this guidance (if that’s what people are looking for) from another book. That’s one of the great things: there are happy people, sad people, good, bad, ugly, stupid, genius, goofs, manipulators… and at the crux of it, as you said: God sacrificed himself for each of them.
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Ryn; Thank you, but also pleasse accept my apologies, I didn’t mean to sound quite so aggressive, I really don’t have a god in this fight. What I appreciate about the quiet and humble devout of any religion is that they aren’t evangelists. As long as it’s not hurting anybody I don’t really care what someone believes, however, when they are telling me loudly that I should believe it too, though it’s doesn’t really hurt, it does annoy the piss out of me. So, given the number of religious adherents out there, I’m most grateful for the ones that aren’t shouting or shooting.
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Ryn; Thank you, but also pleasse accept my apologies, I didn’t mean to sound quite so aggressive, I really don’t have a god in this fight. What I appreciate about the quiet and humble devout of any religion is that they aren’t evangelists. As long as it’s not hurting anybody I don’t really care what someone believes, however, when they are telling me loudly that I should believe it too, though it’s doesn’t really hurt, it does annoy the piss out of me. So, given the number of religious adherents out there, I’m most grateful for the ones that aren’t shouting or shooting.
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In a world with very little hope elsewhere, why would you want to try to convince people away from it? Science, unfortunately, doesn’t give us hope. It tries to give answers and then asks for more money. Traveling: joy. Reading: peace. Taxes: hatred and pay for wars. Education brings people down more than raises them up. Where is the hope? What is actually trying to lift people up? (see John 3:17)
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In a world with very little hope elsewhere, why would you want to try to convince people away from it? Science, unfortunately, doesn’t give us hope. It tries to give answers and then asks for more money. Traveling: joy. Reading: peace. Taxes: hatred and pay for wars. Education brings people down more than raises them up. Where is the hope? What is actually trying to lift people up? (see John 3:17)
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I’m not going to say I agree with most of completelyconfuzled stuff, but I will agree with religion as a means for hope for some people and it’s sort of cruel if they aren’t hurting anyone to try and kick that crutch. I still don’t have a god in this fight. I might could point out that one can’t say there is no god and he’s a bloodthirsty son of a bitch. I may be a bit hazy on the wholeboundaries of reality stuff, but you have to exist to impose your will I’m thinking. Just sayin’.
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I’m not going to say I agree with most of completelyconfuzled stuff, but I will agree with religion as a means for hope for some people and it’s sort of cruel if they aren’t hurting anyone to try and kick that crutch. I still don’t have a god in this fight. I might could point out that one can’t say there is no god and he’s a bloodthirsty son of a bitch. I may be a bit hazy on the wholeboundaries of reality stuff, but you have to exist to impose your will I’m thinking. Just sayin’.
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