Marriage Counselor Minutes (continued 2)

Nichole: Right. Um–
Me: And…
Teresa: (to Nichole) You were going to say something.
Nichole: Yeah, I wanted to bring up something from last session. He had a little confusion about– when we left last week– about something you said on how to read beneath what’s being said. Um, can you, I don’t know, tell us a little more about that? I tried to explain to him what you meant and I’m not sure I explained it well enough.
Teresa: Okay.
Me: Yeah, when we were leaving I brought up the “hitting someone with a car” analogy and how instead of trying to explain “I didn’t mean to”, instead I should be tending to the wounds. And I said, “I have no idea how to tend to the wounds.”
Teresa: ’cause you don’t know that there are wounds.
Nichole: And metaphorically I said to him, “You need to apply pressure to the bleeding.”
Teresa: So let’s use a different metaphor. Okay? Sometimes it’s not a good metaphor if you can’t connect with that kind of thing. Um, do you swim in the ocean? Swim in rivers?
Me: A pool.
Teresa: Okay. In pools. What do you know about rivers?
Me: There’s a current. Um, they’re cold. They come from the mountains the they go to the ocean. And it’s not sanitary. (laughing) Brown.
Teresa: So, people drown in the river all the time. Not by what’s goin’ on on the top. How do they drown?
Me: Um, probably some under-current pulls them under.
Teresa: They get sucked under. They get sucked under by debris that’s collected down here. You can’t see it on top. It doesn’t even cause a ripple on top, but it sucks you down. So it’s the difference between what you see up here and what’s really goin’ on down here. It can look all good up here. ‘Oh, it looks all smooth and soft! I think I’ll go swimming.’ Except it’s a huge mistake, because there’s this underlying current that tells a completely different story of what’s really going on. You don’t wanna do that. And so when I talk about attending to what that is, it’s what’s really goin’ on under here. It’s not what it looks like. And people tend to– there are people who only see what’s on top, and there are other people that function solely by what’s goin’ on under here. And your wife is one of those that really is down here, where there’s a lot of stuff that she’s– because she’s such a sensing person, she gets a lot of stuff, right? And you are somewhere in there. I don’t know where it is. I’m not sure right now you know where it is. It’s somewhere. We don’t know where. But my attempt was to help you recognize that there is something else down there. There’s something else going on. And so being able to observe things and say, “Yeah, I know it all looks like that over there, but, y’know, I’m noticing this other thing right over here that causes me to think ‘Oh yeah, there’s way more going on under there.'”
Me: I get that feeling a lot with her. I just don’t know– I’m usually trying to figure out what’s causing it.
Teresa: Instead of– so you really are still that explorer, that curious guy that has gotta find the answers. You’re like a scientist.
Me: Like, a lot of a times, like, it starts an argument and I think, ‘Well, what I said shouldn’t have started that. Maybe I–‘
Teresa: Instead of thinking, ‘Why did what I said start that?’
Me: Well sometimes I think, ‘Is that what started that? Or has she just had a bad day with the kids today? Or is something hurting?’
Teresa: So do you barrage her with these questions or do you just let it go?
Me: Sometimes I would try barraging and she feels like she’s being interrogated.
Teresa: Right, because anybody would.
Me: And then, so sometimes I try to just let it go and then I feel like I’m being uncaring.
Teresa: So it swings, the pendulum swings. One or the other. And again, finding a place more in the middle of ‘How can I find out what’s really goin’ on?’ When you come into an environment, are you able to read your environment?
Me: I’m not sure. I read what I can read, but I don’t know if that is more or less than what most people can. ’cause I’ve never experienced what most people can do, so I have no way to gauge that.
Teresa: But this is about you. This isn’t about anybody else, this is about you. Can you read your environment? Can you tell, the minute you walk into a room, what the emotional atmosphere is?
Me: No.
Teresa: (to Nichole) Can you?
Nichole: I don’t think I can just by walking in.
Me: Just by walking in, I mean if you hear something going on.
Nichole: I think I get a clue, though, by tone of voice or something that’s said.
Teresa: Are you preparing before you come into something to gauge that?
Nichole: Probably.
Teresa: (looks at me)
Me: No way.
Teresa: Right, right. So, when you come home, you’re not even really connected to the emotional atmosphere. And it might be that you don’t start having those thoughts of, ‘Wow, what the hell happened to you today?’ until after she’s giving you some kind of response to something else. Because you’re clueless about it. You can’t even look and know if you– right? (to Nichole) Is that how it feels? (to me) And I’m not saying that’s how you are. Again, I’m trying to speak to her experience, what it’s like for her and why it’s difficult for her. And why she may at times believe, ‘You know nothing about me or what happens here.’
Me: Yeah, she’s said that.
Teresa: Okay. Alright. And that would come along with the experiences that we’re talking about. Because you don’t read that. And it doesn’t mean that you’re defective or something’s wrong with you. It doesn’t mean that. It means that it hasn’t been brought into your awareness. You can learn how to do it, though. It may not come naturally, but, I believe that you’ve shown a lot of effort coming here and being here and talking about stuff and coming back with good feedback, that you’d like to learn that. And the beginning of that is paying attention to it. And you might just come in and say, “Hey, how’d things go today, Hun?”
Me: Which, I’ve been doing that.
Teresa: Is that helpful?
Nichole: Sometimes.
Teresa: What’s the difference between when it is and when it isn’t?
Nichole: Um, I think because I notice that he has something he wants to get off his chest, maybe?
Teresa: So if that’s it, then you have this idea that, ‘He doesn’t really care what went on with me today, he just wants to download. And that’s gonna cause all kinds of stuff, I don’t even wanna go there.’
Nichole: Right.
Me: And of all the time’s I’ve asked that, I’ve never had something that I wanted to say.
Teresa: Well, but she can’t know that. And she’s basing it on something, because she has intuition. She’s a sensing person.
Nichole: Pattern.
Teresa: Yeah, she’s basin’ it on something.
Nichole: I see a pattern of, he comes home and unloads.
Me: Yeah. There’s a difference between wanting to unload and actually doing it, though.
Teresa: Uh, but she’s going by the wanting to, because she’s– that’s the debris under here.
Me: Well I can’t stop or help that I’m gonna want to, but I can stop whether I do it or not.
Teresa: Well, you can. If you’re able to say, “You know, I had a really crappy day today, but I just don’t wanna talk about it.” Okay? How would that be?
Me: I’d be lying. (laughing)
Nichole: I don’t think he would do that.
Me: ’cause I don’t wanna lie.
Teresa: ‘kay, so it is a– it seems like it’s a moral imperative for you to process your stuff.
Me: I don’t have to, but it would be lying to say I don’t want to. But I can choose not to and just try to focus on her and just keep it to myself.
Nichole: But then I don’t feel like you’re completely committed to listening to me. It seems like you are doing it because you think you need to.
Teresa: So it’s not genuine. It doesn’t feel genuine to you. Which is gonna keep you from…
Nichole: Wanting to say anything. Yeah.
Teresa: Right. Are there ever times, Nichole, that you just download or vent to him? That isn’t about him?
Nichole: Sometimes.
Teresa: When you do that, what’s his response?
Me: (holds up thumb and index finger indicating a small space between them)
Teresa: Oh, oh, good one! Nichole, you only do it that much! What’s his response when you have done that?
Nichole: Um, I don’t remember.
Teresa: Well there’s a reason you’ve only done it this much.
Nichole: I think because I feel like he always has something to say.
Teresa: He’s always trying to tell you what you did wrong, how you could’ve fixed it, what you need to do next time. Is he always, like, trying to solve the problem or…?
Nichole: Yeah.
Teresa: Which can– don’t say anything, Jason.
Nichole: Not necessarily telling me what I did wrong, but solving the problem, yeah.
Teresa: Which makes you feel like, ‘I’m inadequate, I– clearly I don’t–‘ And really all you want from him is to say, “Aww, I’m really sorry you had a rough day.”
Nichole: Yeah.
Me: I think actually more than that, I tell a similar story of myself and try to relate to her.
Nichole: Right.
Teresa: There it goes. It comes back to you.
Nichole: (laughing) He turns it back to him.
Teresa: Right. And so you recognize that that has kept her, because there she’s in the cave.
Me: So I really try not to do that when she does, and lately, even before coming here, um, I’ve been trying to just listen and let her do it, ’cause I’m like ‘*gasp* Good! She’s telling me something!’ Like, ‘I don’t want to mess this one up!’
Teresa: Good for you! (to Nichole) Can you tell that he’s listening when he does that, or does it not feel sincere?
Nichole: It doesn’t feel sincere.
Me: Well, because my attention starts diverting elsewhere ’cause I’m not captivated by what she’s telling me and I’m just like, ‘Stop! Stop! Stop! Just listen to her. Stop! Listen to her!’
Teresa: So you are disinterested. Okay. (to Nichole) Well, some of that is his attention issues, which makes him the computer wiz that he is, frankly. (to me) I mean, a lot of what I’m hearing is, okay, this is part and parcel of who you are. Your thoughts are constantly in motion and they don’t light on anything for very long. And you do have to stop your head from doing that, to listen. But how, then, do you reflect to her that you really are listening? How can she tell?
Me: I try to give feedback that is specific to what she said.
Teresa: In the end or during the conversation?
Me: When I think that I maybe trailed off and maybe I need to give her confirmation that I was listening, whenever it happens.
Teresa: But by then you lose her. She’s lost already.
Me: And by trying to give specific confirmation, that’s me telling things that I relate to. (laughing)
Teresa: Making it about you again!
Me: That’s me trying to show that I was listening.
Teresa: Right… but that’s not the message you’re sending. Well, good conversation. I’d like you to take these lists home and kind of start paying attention to, well– there’s 1 or 2 ways we can go with this, and I’m trying to figure out what’s gonna be the best way. Um, what I’d like you to do is to identify– pick a specific event. There’s gonna be something that happens, okay? And right after that, there’s 1 or 2 things you can do. And this is what I’m gonna say, ’cause you’ll have something that comes up. It doesn’t have to be a negative thing, it can be something that was fun and positive. But I’d like you to sit down with each other and take your list, and say, “This is what it felt like for me. You know, for those 10 minutes when we were doing this.” The other person is not allowed to respond to that person and what they’re saying, at all. Each person will have an opportunity to do that.
Me: For the same event?
Teresa: Yep. For the same event. Check off those feelings and bring that back next time. And we’ll just choose 1 event to do that with. You might have others that you could come up with, but– and specifically what I wanna be able to do is help you identify in the moment what it felt like for you. ’cause in a lot of ways you guys misread each other.
Nichole: What happens if we have more than one event? (laughing) And we’re both talking about a different event.
Teresa: You have to agree on the event.
Me: Yeah, at the time we have to do it. Right after it happened. So we’re writing down what we felt or what we thought they felt?
Teresa: No, what you felt. You’re not allowed to say what you thought she felt. You write down what you felt. She’s gonna write down what she felt, and she’s not allowed to write down what she thought you felt. We’re not gonna guess, we’re gonna get together and talk about what you did feel, (to Nichole) and what you did feel. Okay? No guessing at all.
Nichole: Um, when should we come back?
Teresa: Well, um, again, I think that we’re doing some really good work and I think if you’d like to come back weekly for a while we can continue this work. If it works better for you financially and otherwise to come every other week, I would feel comfortable with that.
Me: They ran her insurance and using it under hers is actually less than half of what it was for mine. So going once a week is actually better financially than going once every 2 weeks on mine, that we were planning on doing, so…
Teresa: So is once every week– is that something that’s gonna work for you financially and schedule-wise, ’cause that’s the thing, too. And you guys can talk about that, okay? But I would feel– my hesitancy with every 2 weeks is that we’re doing some pretty specific work and over a 2-week period of time you can forget. Over a 1-week period of time it’s easier to recall that stuff.
Me: Well this is one of the biggest things I look forward to during the week, too. I wouldn’t wanna wait 2 weeks.
Teresa: That’s so nice! That’s so nice you’re not hatin’ coming in here! Excellent. Well, thank you, guys, and I will see you then next week, okay? Have a good rest of the week.
Me: There’s something that I didn’t bring up or wanted to bring up. It’s just a real quick thing. About my story telling. Um, I think partway through my life I kind of developed that habit because a lot of people wasn’t listening to what I was saying.
Teresa: They get bored and not listen.
Me: And I would say things that were off the wall and wasn’t stuff they talked about and so– or I’d be talking to someone and someone else would come along and start talking to them and they’d pay attention to them and I’d be like, ‘What the heck?’ And so I decided, ‘I’m gonna make them– I’m not gonna give them the point until the end so they’ll have to listen in order to know what I’m actually saying.’
Teresa: That’s a really good observation.
Me: So that’s what I just do now. It’s habitual.
Teresa: Yes, it’s a habit, yeah. wow. That’s good information for you, and for me. ’cause that’s one of the things we’re trying to make adjustments around, ’cause again, storytelling is wonderful. I encourage that. And being able to use it where it’s beneficial is– that’s the key in recognizing that it’s not beneficial. “This isn’t what I’m saying.” And you are somebody who should be respected and listened to. And when it doesn’t happen at work, that’s a problem. Nobody should treat you like that. Well, it was nice talking to you. I’ll see you guys later.