Marriage Counselor Minutes (continued)

Me: Like– ’cause I work in IT and I get a bunch of people that it seems like they don’t even wanna do any part on their own, they just want me to stop what I’m doing and go over and fix their computer and it’s like, “Well, I’m 2 buildings away. Can’t you just do what I’m saying over the phone and do this?” And they get– um, a lot of them are salespeople so they don’t take “no” for an answer and so they try to almost bully me into doing it and then they call their manager and their manager calls me and it’s like “This is a small problem.” They’re making a huge deal out of it. So those kinds of things I’ll go and I’ll tell her like, “I was talking to so-and-so today and…” And that’s how a lot of them are.
Teresa: So things that are frustrating to you. Which is different than talking about what you see other people doing. Talking about negative things.
Me: Yeah most of ’em are things that happened to me. But after I recall it, it’s like I watched someone else do it. It’s as entertaining to me– now it’s an entertaining story that I can tell.
Teresa: But other people– well, I won’t say “other people”. Your wife isn’t entertained by it.
Me: And I’m realizing that slowly. (snicker) More so now talking about it.
Teresa: Right, right. And it is– so there is a distinction between “I need to vent” and “this is now just a story. An entertaining story”. So what is it that you want from her?
Me: Well sometimes the entertaining story does the same result as venting. Like I vent through an entertaining story.
Teresa: Okay. That works for you, but when it doesn’t work for the listener, because the listener never knows which is coming, kind of, ‘what am I responding to? An entertaining story or a real problem?’, right? It can be very confusing.
Me: I guess what I’d like–
Teresa: She’s shaking her head up and down. Mmhmm.
Me: My, um, preferred response to such a story would be like, agreeing with me, like, “Oh yeah, they did this?” and…
Teresa: Now we’re gettin’ down to it. You want an ally.
Me: Yes. I always want an ally. In any story I tell.
Teresa: You want an ally… it’s not about venting. It’s about gaining an ally.
Nichole: But how do I distinguish that from–
Me: I want to relate to her through something.
Teresa: She’s– let her talk…
Me: Alright, sorry.
Nichole: I feel like he’s looking for an answer. “Why did they do this?”
Teresa: But he just told you he’s not.
Nichole: Yeah.
Me: Sometimes I am, though.
Teresa: How can she tell the difference?
Me: ’cause I’ll approach it with…
Nichole: But you always approach it with a story, so I don’t–
Me: But a lot of times I start out saying, “Um, I’m kind of confused by what someone did and maybe you can tell me why they did this”, and then I’ll tell the story. And then a lot of times she seems to side with them. Maybe she’s not, but she’s telling me reasons as to why they did it, but–
Teresa: So you ask her for reasons, she gives you her opinion, and then–
Me: But her reason usually seems to–
Teresa: It doesn’t back you up, which is what you’re looking for is an ally. You want her to agree with you, ultimately. Even when you– so it’s a mixed message is all I’m saying, that it’s a mixed message, and–
Me: I would like to know the truth.
Teresa: Right. But you want the truth to be that “you’re okay and I’m behind you.”
Me: Not necessarily. But a lot of times it seems like she’s now annoyed at me because of what I did in the story. Like, “Jeez, now I’m against you.”
Teresa: She starts having an emotional response to it. And I wonder, I wonder– (to Nichole) and I’m gonna check in with you about this– (to me) I wonder if what you’re picking up from her is that she’s trying to tell you and you’re rejecting it, and so she does become annoyed with you.
Me: So annoyed at that, not annoyed at what I did in the story.
Teresa: Quite possibly.
Me: How can I tell that?
Teresa: (laughing) How can you tell that?
Me: In the moment. (laughing)
Teresa: Well, it’s gonna start with not giving off mixed messages. That’s where it starts. “I need an ally here, Honey. That’s what I need from you.” You need to tell her what you need.
Me: But I do want to know why the person responded that way, because a lot of times I’ve wracked my brain and I can’t figure it out.
Teresa: Well, and you know what? She may need time to think about that. And you may want to give her time to think about that. But in the short term, you need an ally. This is, “Wow, gosh, well I can certainly see why you would have answered like that. But you know what? Let me think about it for a little bit.” Right?
Me: Mm, yeah.
Teresa: (to Nichole) How would that be?
Nichole: Heh. I don’t know. Heh.
Teresa: So do you get annoyed with him at some point because he’s not listening to your feedback?
Nichole: Yeah.
Teresa: And then it becomes an argument where it seems like you’re faulting him for the whole thing. That seem right?
Nichole: Mmhmm. Usually I would give a reason why maybe they were that way, but he, yeah– maybe takes it as–
Me: Well I like…
Teresa: Well you’re asking– a little bit of what you’re doing is asking her to play devil’s advocate. Is that what you’re asking her to do? Or be an observer? ’cause she can’t be an objective observer at all, first of all, because she wasn’t there. She’s hearing one side of the story. There’s no possible way she can give you the answer that you want.
Nichole: I try to guess.
Teresa: Unless she was watching the whole thing.
Me: And I try to be as unbiased about it as possible, just giving what was said–
Teresa: You just cannot be unbiased, none of us can, Jason! None of us can. There’s no such thing as being unbiased when it’s about you. That’s just a fact. Try as we may, we can’t be. So…
Me: I can understand the– I do get her getting annoyed that I’m not listening to feedback. Um, that is mainly because she is giving feedback when I’m not done yet and she hasn’t had the whole story yet, so like, “Based on just that, sure, but that’s not relevant yet because I haven’t told the whole story yet. You don’t know it all”.
Teresa: That’s what you believe. You believe it’s not relevant yet. So, how many time have I stopped you in here? Not today, but overall.
Me: Ummm, 3 times?
Teresa: Why do you think I’ve done that?
Me: Mmm, ’cause I was maybe starting to go on something that showed that I wasn’t getting it.
Teresa: You were going in a different direction, and the feedback you needed from me needed to happen right then. Which makes everything from this point on– it’s like “Okay, hold on. Let’s come back to this. Because this is likely where the whole thing started coming from. Right here.”
Me: I would rather tell the whole story and then have her be, “Okay, at this point, this happened, at this point this happened, at this point this happened, and this is from this” but I want to get my whole story out first ’cause I like telling stories.
Nichole: Well that’s a lot to remember. (laughing)
Teresa: (to Nichole) “How long are his stories?” is what I was going to ask you.
Nichole: Long.
Teresa: Yeah. (to me) And you’re really good at taking a conversation in a completely different direction. You really are good at it. And I am working on trying to bring you back and stopping you and staying focused right here, because you do get trailed off, and it’s not non-tangential. It isn’t something that’s just random. It’s connected… way the heck out there. But it’s not about this right here. And it’s hard, then, to lasso you and get you back in. It’s not hard to me.
Me: I’ll do it eventually. When I’m done with that then I’ll come back to where we left off, but, in an hour. (laughing)
Teresa: Okay, but for the listener it’s like an hour-long commercial!
Me: An hour-long commercial! (laughing)
Teresa: “What the heck? I forgot what the movie’s about! What was I watching again? You expect me to–”
Me: That’s how my brother and my conversations are the whole time where you just feed off each other.
Teresa: Well that may work with you and your brother, (Nichole and her laughing) but it’s not working with you and your wife.
Me: Yeah, I know.
Teresa: And since she’s the one you’re going to grow old with and live with for the rest of your life, making adjustments to some things, and really, just the opportunity to have this conversation at all, right? is another opportunity for you to be paying attention to this. ‘I need to do this.’ And if there’s an idea or concept that you’re trying to get across, to be able to say, “I really think it’s important for me to add this one more thing” as opposed to “No, I have to tell you from the beginning to the end.” Because that– it’s like taking a drink out of a fire hose. Right?
Nichole: Mmhmm. A lot of information.
Teresa: A lot of information. You have a lot of words. A lot of words. And she’s trying to connect with those subtleties under there. ‘Why would somebody react like that?’ People’s reactions are based on emotional responses.
Me: Well, once she gives her feedback, now I don’t feel like telling the rest of the story is relevant, but I still wanna tell the whole story. And now I feel like there’s not as much of a point to telling it anymore.
Teresa: So… you like to tell stories.
Me: Yes, most definitely.
Teresa: I wonder if– and I think that’s a fun thing. I’m a story teller. I got a story for everything. I do, I love stories, I make up stories. With kids I just do that ’cause I think it’s fun. But there’s a difference between telling a story that’s fun and telling a story, a long story, and trying to get feedback from somebody. Because then, I mean the reality then is that even the speaker can’t hardly take that feedback because now the listener has to go back to over here. Which means that the listener has to take you from here all the way back to over here. And that’s a skill. It’s a skill. I’m a trained professional, and I do it really well. It took me a long time to not get dragged down the bunny trail. A long time. Because that’s what happens. We become engaged in the story, and once we become part of that story by our engagement, we can’t give feedback any longer because we’re trying– it’s too much information.
Me: So I need to pick–
Nichole: That’s what happens to me. In the middle of the night after we have an argument and you’re talking and talking and I don’t have anything to say because I just don’t know where to begin.
Teresa: Because there’s so much that’s there. So many words, so many places, so many things that are being brought in, so you really relate to what we’re talking about here.
Nichole: Mmhmm.
Me: During those ones it’s different. I’m not trying to tell a story…
Teresa: It’s the same for her. It’s not about a story, it’s the same experience for her. It’s too much information.
Me: In those ones I pause and think, ‘okay, I gave a little bit right there’ and then I don’t get anything back from her and I ask what she thinks and she doesn’t–
Teresa: Well she can’t possibly tell you, especially if you’ve already had an argument. She’s still trying to recover from that.
Me: She’s wanting to go to bed, though.
Teresa: Well, why do you think she wants to go to bed?
Me: So she can forget about it the next day. That’s what she says, “Tomorrow’s a new day, so just forget about it.”
Teresa: (to Nichole) Well, nice try.
Nichole: I think part of it, though, is I just– my brain doesn’t work, like I can’t think of things on the spot.
Teresa: You can’t process things. So do you wake up the next day and not follow up on it?
Nichole: Yeah.
Teresa: Because you’re an avoider. Okay. Which is– so, I can understand why she’d want to go to bed. It’s emotionally exhausting and physically exhausting when we go through something like that, for anybody. Kids that have big giant tantrums, what happens right after they have a big giant tantrum?
Nichole: Fall asleep.
Teresa: They fall asleep.
Me: I don’t really see ’em have giant tantrums. (snicker)
Teresa: That’s what kids do. And that’s what happens to people. They’re physically exhausted when they have a big emotional crisis like that. So I can understand that. But the avoidance the next day contributes to the problem. Because nothing gets resolved. And then what is he supposed to think? Because basically you’re not available.
Me: And I know that’s gonna happen so I try to resolve it before we go to sleep.
Teresa: Right, right, which isn’t gonna happen, either, so…
Me: She’s said before, “We’re not gonna solve this in one night.”
Teresa: Well, you’re not going to solve it in one month, either, by the way. It takes a long time to learn and practice this stuff. And it’s a slow process. It just is. Anything that changes, changes slowly in relationships, because– I mean, it’s not like we’re 8 and 9 years old where we only have 6 years of wrong learning and mistakes. We have a lifetime of being stuck in a pattern. And then we have this relationship timeline of complimentary responses, right? And “I’m gonna have to adjust my response to your reaction and I’m gonna have to do that with you”, and it’s this whole pursue, retreat, pursue, retreat, pursue, retreat. You pursue and she retreats and waits for the dust to settle before she comes out again. It may be a day, overnight, a week, who knows? Who knows? And that’s confusing for you. ’cause it’s like, “What? I thought today was a new day and you’re still…” right? She just needs it to stop, she does, and finding a way where it feels safe (to Nichole) for you, to come out of the cave. ’cause if you come out of the cave and you’re assaulted by a saber-toothed tiger 7 out of 10 times, (to me) you think she’s gonna wanna come out of the cave the other 3 times? No. And when she does, do ya think she’s gonna be on alert?
Me: Yeah.
Teresa: Yeah, she is. And that’s what it feels like when you’re a cave-dweller. And that’s what she is: a cave-dweller. But that’s how she protects herself.
Me: Well then what am I?
Teresa: The saber-toothed tiger. That’s what you are to her. I’m not saying that’s what you are to Jason.
Me: No, I’m saying what am I to– if I’m not a cave-dweller, what would I be as far as the cave man?
Teresa: If we’re talking about how you cope with things, because that’s really what I’m talking about, is coping skills, okay? So that’s her coping skill, and her experience, which is why she has to stay in her cave and even when she comes out she’s tentative and always waiting and watching, right? For you, it’s different for you. You are very determined for resolution. And you’re an explorer. And explorers are curious and they throw caution to the wind, and they push things to their limit, because that’s what they do. That’s what explorers do, right? And so that’s what you do. And when something doesn’t work you walk away from it. You always come back to it, though. ’cause it’s like, ‘Yeah, I never did figure that out, I need to scramble that up again. What is that?’ That’s what you do.
Me: Our son is afraid of plants. And my dad was saying, “Why are you afraid of the plant? It’s not gonna do anything.” And everyone says that he’s a lot like me. And I asked him, I said, “So what was I afraid of when I was his age?” and my dad said “Y’know, you weren’t really afraid of anything, you were just more curious.”
Teresa: Wow, I wonder why he would say that? “He’s a lot like you.”
Me: Well they just– he looks like me, the way he talks is like me, he gets excited about things like me.
Teresa: Yes, but you said, “What was I afraid of?” and your dad said, “Well, you really weren’t afraid, you were curious.”
Me: So I guess maybe not in that area, but in a lot of other things.
Teresa: Well but still, I’m gonna go back to, how was it that you didn’t learn about things? Emotional things, right? To a parent, what’s the difference between curiosity and destruction?
Me: Between curiosity and destruction… You mean for a kid or for us?
Teresa: For us.
Me: Knowing where to stop.
Teresa: (to Nichole) What do you think the difference is for you, between destruction and curiosity?
Nichole: One investigates just to see how it is and one investigates to take it apart.
Teresa: Which is still curiosity. But parents see that as destructiveness. Right? And so they try and squash it. Kids get into trouble for being curious. (to me) I wonder how much trouble you got into for being curious.
Me: Mmm, not too much. I broke some of our– computer and stuff like that, but my dad said, “Well, y’know, it may cost us some money right now, but some day he’s probably gonna be good at fixing ’em.”
Teresa: That’s a very nice way of viewing it. Most parents don’t. Especially when kids are younger. So when kids go back to something, because they can’t seem to just get it out of their head, I mean it’s like ‘Is that defiance or is that curiosity?’ And it’s often curiosity.
Me: My dad’s told us– he loves telling stories, too, but he would tell about his family life, how he was never allowed to do anything, and he never wanted that for us, so he tries to give us more freedom.
Teresa: Nice stories. Yeah, those are nice stories. I bet you know all of them by heart, right?
Me: If I’m reminded the beginning of them.
Teresa: “Oh yeah, I remember that story.” Uh-huh. So, being a story teller can be a fun thing, and–
Me: So in telling stories, I really need to decide, ‘Am I more wanting to tell the story to tell it, or to get feedback?’
Teresa: Yes.
Me: I can’t do both.
Teresa: That is correct. You cannot do both. And she needs to know which one you want. (to Nichole) ’cause it sounds like you could go either way, right?

(continued in next entry due to lack of room)