Marriage Counselor Minutes

I recorded this on my phone and then wrote it while listening to it. It took forever. I removed acknowledgement things such as “okay” or “mmhmm” where they just add breaks and don’t contribute to the conversation.

Teresa: It’s nice to see you both.
Nichole: Thanks.
Me: You too. (about Nichole) She’s got her pretty pink shirt on.
Teresa: I know, I was going to say, you look all Summer-y.
Nichole: Heh heh.
Teresa: I like it. I’m in my drab green. It’s like, I couldn’t figure out what to wear, it was cloudy, I said, “That’s it, I’m wearing my drab Fall green because that’s what I feel like today.” How’ve you guys been?
Nichole: Fine.
Me: Good.
Teresa: Good? How’ve things been going at home?
Me: Haven’t really had too many arguments. Couple starts of some. Um, but again, just not keeping it going.
Teresa: Okay. How are you stopping that? What kind of thought process is that taking?
Me: Um, thinking things like, ‘It’s not gonna benefit anyone if this gets resolved or not.’ Um, whether, I guess if I win or not. When it’s– or not even just ‘win’ but just more– even if I– whether I get my point across or not, it’s…
Teresa: What’s the point?
Me: It doesn’t have anything to do with anything. It’s about something like why acorns fall off trees, y’know?
Teresa: Mmhmm. So you’re kind of beginning to recognize, ‘Is this really important? Is this that important that I would just start pushing and pushing my point to get it across?’ And you’re backing off. Letting it go?
Me: Yeah.
Teresa: Okay. What do you say when you– do you say anything or do you just let it come to a conclusion and then…?
Me: Um, I’ve been saying like– the one I can think of is about dog years.
Teresa: About dog ears?
Me: Dog years.
Nichole: (snickering) Years.
Me: Dog years.
Teresa: Okay, dog years.
Nichole: How much an average dog ages, heh heh.
Me: ’cause we have a neighbor with a dog and I saw them riding their bikes by and then they came back and then I saw them walking their dog and I thought ‘they just went out, like, they need to take the dog again?’ And then I thought ‘wait a minute. They didn’t have their dog the first time.’ And I thought ‘they can just take off even though they have a dog’ and so I said, to her (Nichole) “Man, dogs are easier to find, um, sitters for than kids.”
Teresa: That’s actually true. You can leave your dog somewhere for weeks at a time, and not really…
Me: And I said, “But I guess even just 1 year old, um, a dog is about, like, a 17-year-old. Person. And she–
Teresa: It’s 7 years to a year.
Nichole: Ha! No (‘no’ like ‘just kidding about the “ha”‘).
Me: And she said “well no, it’s 7 years.” And I said, “Yeah, general, over the whole span of the life, but they age a lot more in their first year, than the rest, than afterwards.” And she said, “Even the vets say that it’s 7 years.” And I said, “Well, they mate after one year. 7-year-olds don’t.” (laughing) And then she started to be visually upset about it, like, you know, we’re arguing, I’m correcting her and I’m disagreeing. Um, so I said, “You know what? This isn’t a very important thing to talk about.” And she said, “No, it’s not important at all.” I’m like, “Okay, then never mind.” (snickering)
Teresa: (to Nichole) And then how was it when he stopped?
Nichole: Um, it was, okay.
Teresa: Did you still feel angry towards him and kinda carry that around? Or…
Nichole: No, I just– playfully I was like “ha ha”, you know, just now, but– (laughing) No, I hadn’t thought of it– had a second thought of it until he brought it up again. So…
Teresa: Well, okay. So that’s helpful. How’s it been for you, Nichole?
Nichole: Okay. I um, had something the other night where– I don’t remember exactly what happened, but I mentioned, um, you know, this is kinda what Teresa was talking about. Um… What was it, Honey? I don’t remember.
Me: It was– I don’t remember what exactly we were talking about, but it was how I had said something to her, like I had– I was bringing something up. Bringing up a topic. And, I don’t think she understood what I meant, or she thought I was talking about something else. I don’t remember. And so I tried to explain further what I was meaning, and she didn’t seem to want to have the conversation and…
Nichole: I remember saying “How did you turn it from what we were talking about to you?”
Me: Yes, it was something where I turned it onto myself again.
Nichole: Right. And I pointed that out to him and said, “This is what Teresa was talking about.” And so I made him aware of that. And I think that was–
Me: Yeah. So I thanked her. I said, “Thank you for letting me know,” ’cause I’ve been– this is stuff I’ve been saying all along now, is “I need your help in letting me know when I’m stepping out of line, or when I’m doing things that you don’t like” and until now she’s not liked to do that because she feels like a nag.
Teresa: Well, it’s hard to be able to– I mean “step out of line” is very vague. #1: What the heck does that mean? And um, you know, “tell me what I’m doing?” is hard when you don’t know what it is he’s doing. You kinda think you do, but you’re second-guessing yourself, and “is that really what…?” Y’know, you don’t know. And so– which is why our conversations are so important. Because it clarifies things. It gives something concrete to go back to when someone says, “Well, this is what I see is happening,” ’cause you can’t hear it from her, until you– in fact it must’ve been yesterday where someone had actually said that: “Y’know there are things that I just have not been able to hear from my partner. I haven’t– and you are telling me the exact same things and I get it, but I am just so shut off.” And it’s just that emotional piece that distorts things between people and makes it hard because we start taking everything in through our emotional process and putting it all back out there.
Me: So I’ve been trying to be more aware of her emotions and not focusing on what I think is causing it but just more on the whole “let’s make you feel better now” um…
Teresa: Well, paying attention to, y’know, what her emotions– What kind of emotions have you noticed she’s been having? Specifically?
Me: I don’t know what they are. Um, just, they seem–
Teresa: How can you make them feel better when you don’t know what they are?
Me: –they seem negative, just in general. I can’t specifically point out which ones they are.
Teresa: You notice she has negative feelings. Okay.
Me: And then when I’ve tried to determine what they are, I don’t really have much to go on. And I’ve said to her, “I’m trying to do what the therapist said to do. I’m trying to focus on the feelings more– focus on this. But I’m not sure what you’re feeling right now.”
Teresa: If I give you this, look at the words and feelings off of that… (she handed me a chart of emotions)
Me: I would say annoyed, bitter. “Irritated” seems like “annoyed” to me, like the same thing. Upset. Um, possibly put off, cold or disconnected. Aloof. Those all seem the same thing. Um, frustrated. And the difficulty is figuring out which of those she actually is.
Teresa: Um… no, that’s not hard.
Me: Well, for me…
Teresa: Oh, it doesn’t have to be. I’m gonna tell you how easy it is. ’cause it’s pretty easy. That’s a lot of feelings.
Me: I mean just based off her outward reaction I can’t tell which of those–
Teresa: That’s what it looks like, and you can’t tell, and you’re absolutely right. Nobody can tell. We can make assumptions. And the way to find out–
Me: So I asked her.
Teresa: –is to check it out. So did you ask her about those specific feelings? Or did you just say–
Me: I said “upset”, ’cause–
Teresa: Did you say, “I can see you’re upset”?
Me: Maybe not those exact words, but I said, “You seem to be upset to me. I’m having trouble knowing how you’re actually feeling. Can you help me?” And she said, “Well, I’m trying to be more like you and not show my feelings as much. So I’m trying to hide my feelings and be more like you are.” And I said, “Well, that makes it difficult for me to determine, because you’re not me, so you don’t naturally hide them like I do.”
Teresa: Why is she trying to do that?
Me: I think so that I won’t pick up on them and feel bad myself.
Teresa: Did you ask her why she’s trying to do it?
Me: No.
Teresa: You’re making an assumption. ‘kay.
Me: But I didn’t mind why at the time.
Teresa: (to Nichole) Why are you doing that?
Nichole: Um, I think partly I’m trying to get a handle on my own emotions and trying to control them a little better.
Teresa: That’s kinda what I was thinking.
Nichole: So I’m not constantly running on high. Part of it– I feel bad for being sad in front of him. Or angry, or, y’know. So I think a lot of it is I’m just trying to control them a little better.
Teresa: Okay. And that’s– (to me) Are you surprised to hear that?
Me: No. She mentioned that too.
Teresa: So, when she says, “I’m trying to do more like you do,” what I hear from her is, “I’m trying to control them more. You seem to have that down pretty good.” (to Nichole) Except he’s the extreme opposite of you. He’s completely cut off from really feeling feelings, which is why this is such an important thing– for him to be able to– (to me) and one of the things I was checking with you is “do you recognize feelings in other people?” Even feelings you yourself may not feel right now, ’cause you disconnect.
Me: I guess a lot of the feelings seem to have identical outward appearance to me.
Teresa: Okay. Okay, and really, I’m working on gauging that, ’cause there’s a lot around that. When people don’t recognize those cues, those emotional cues, it makes it really tough because then assumptions start being made because that’s the safe thing to do.
Me: And I try not to make assumptions because I’ve made so many incorrect assumptions my whole life, so at one point I just decided, ‘I’m just gonna go off of what they say and what they tell me and then I won’t have to assume anymore’. (snickering)
Teresa: Right. But you can see how much of a problem that is.
Me: And that is, too, so them I’m like, ‘Well then now what do I do?’
Teresa: Right. Exactly. Exactly right. (to Nichole) And this is a lifetime that he’s been dealing with this. This isn’t just something with you. This is one of those things that he brings with him, where he didn’t learn to read social cues, those facial cues. Y’know, ‘What does this mean when somebody does that?’ And there can be a lot of reasons for that.
Me: And my mom– I’ve brought it up to her before and she’s always blaming herself about anything. She says, “I don’t think I talked to you guys enough. I don’t think I expressed my emotions enough when I was with you.” Heh.
Teresa: Well, there is some truth to that. when babies are little– you have a little baby at home, right? You’ve got a little kid.
Nichole: 3.
Me: Yeah.
Teresa: Yeah. But when babies are little, they start learning– they have no words, first of all. No capacity for language at that time. It’s something that develops. In order to survive, the very first thing they need to do is read people’s faces and emotions. So what do we do? (pretends to make funny face to baby) “Ooh! La la la!” Right? We don’t just say “Ooh. La la la. La la la.” with a straight face. We’re giving a visual that goes with that. It teaches them recognition of emotions and tone of voice and words. They get that. And there is research and studies on this going way back and they all still hold true today. You can see videos if you wanna go online and look at them, where they do the– it’s the “mother test” as far as that emotional thing for kids. What happens when parents don’t look at their kids and they look away and they’re not making eye contact? The kids get really anxious at first and they act agitated and then they just kinda shut down. ‘kay? That’s one thing that happens. When parents make angry faces, their kids are distressed. They don’t even have to use any words. They can just make an angry face and kids get distressed. So they learn really early, because it’s about survival. Okay? It’s your basic core level. If you’ve never learned language from sound and sight, you would have to protect yourself. And you could. You could tell a threat that way. When parents don’t do a lot of that, y’know, if parents are very studious or serious, if they’re depressed and unavailable, if they’re really busy, if there aren’t siblings around that are– and usually with younger siblings it improves because there’s older siblings that are interacting with them, right? So that changes things, but if no one’s really interacting with you then, no, you really don’t learn that kind of stuff. And then you can’t gauge it. And then you go to school and you already don’t know. And then you start gettin’ confused about things, ’cause you can’t read people. And you begin to feel separate. Because you can’t understand ‘what the heck?’ And so then you go on with your life and it’s kind of the same way. It’s like you can’t understand because ‘I don’t get it. I don’t get it.’ Um, if you flip to the very back page of that– I’m gonna give one of these to you, too, Nichole. Okay? You’ll notice that I attached a sheet with faces. And it looks a little bit silly, there’s no question about it. But it’s fairly accurate when you think about it. Um, there’s some feelings on here that, you know, you may or may not experience, maybe you never see in people, but you can recognize those things, right? Pretty easy to recognize all that. When it’s happening at the time, for people who don’t really make this kind of connection with the visual recognition and applying something– so it’s like seeing somebody that’s down and saying, “Wow, you look like you’re really down today. What’s going on?” It has to be followed up with “What’s going on?” You know. Not that “Wow, you look really down today” ’cause that’s a statement. That’s us telling them that that’s, you know, and then not opening an opportunity for them to say, “Y’know, I’m not really down I’m just tired. I didn’t sleep well last night.” Because don’t those 2 things look the same?
Me and Nichole: Mmhmm.
Me: Yes, they do a lot.
Teresa: They do a lot. And so, if we don’t check it out in that way– and that’s a great way to check it out, to say “What’s going on for you?” as opposed to “Well, tell me if I’m right. Tell me how you’re feeling.” I hate that phrase. “How do you feel?” Really, it’s not a good phrase, ’cause it’s hard for people to answer that question. But when you make an open-ended question: “What’s going on? You look really stressed out” it opens it up to them to tell you exactly what’s going on, even if “exactly” means “I just don’t know right now, I just feel off”. And that happens. Do you ever just feel off, Jason? Off. And you can’t really– kinda like ‘I don’t know, I just don’t feel… myself’?
Me: Mmm, not very often.
Teresa: Not very often, but you’ve experienced it.
Me: I’m sure I have. I can’t think of the last time it’s happened, though.
Teresa: Okay. Alright. And it’s just that thing where you’re just like ‘nyeh nyeh ugh. I don’t know why. I’m not apathetic. I’m not this, I’m not that.’ It’s like ‘I don’t know. I’m just off’. And that can happen.
Me: Usually– yeah when– ’cause I go through a cycle of interests, like I’ll get into something that I haven’t been into in a long time, like a video game or something. And then I’ll be really into it, for like a week straight, and then she says, “You’re obsessed with this,” and then I’ll get bored of it, and then I’ll move onto something else.
Teresa: Really you’re in a rut. (to Nichole) He’s in a rut. A week isn’t obsession, it’s a rut. “You’re so stuck in a rut!”
Me: Well no, I go through and cycle through things that are in my interests, and I’m really stuck on that one until I– then I get like ‘I’m bored now and I need to find something else’ and I’m like ‘Oh yeah! That’s right! I forgot about this! and then I get into that and then I’m back on that straight for a week. Heh.
Teresa: Right. That’s the issue with attention where it’s always going and it’s moving around. How would you say, Nichole, you are with reading emotions?
Nichole: Mmm. Um, I think I’m okay at it. I don’t see a lot from him.
Teresa: ‘kay. So you’re not getting a lot of visual feedback.
Nichole: Sometimes I feel like maybe he’s annoyed at something that happened at work, or, y’know, ’cause he comes home and there’s just kind of a vibe. I don’t know exactly how to explain it. Just–
Teresa: It’s an– yeah, it’s that…
Nichole: Intuition… thing.
Teresa: Yeah, it is. You’re a sensing person, so you can sense those unspoken things.
Nichole: Er, yeah. That’s– Yeah. Um…
Teresa: Do you ever ask him about it? Or do you just, like, back off and start walking on egg shells?
Nichole: Um, I usually listen– y’know, what he has to say ’cause he usually has stuff to say (laughing).
Teresa: So you’re usually right when he comes home annoyed.
Nichole: Yeah. A lot of times he will just be venting about work. Um, sometimes I, y’know’ ask him, “What’s wrong?” y’know, “What happened that you’re annoyed at?”
Teresa: Right. That’s that same thing “What’s going on?” ’cause it may not be something that it’s wrong, but it is something that’s buggin’ him. So, it’s kinda like “What’s going on?” That, again, it opens up a bigger conversation instead of limiting it to, y’know, things that are right or wrong, ’cause it just isn’t that easy. That closes it off. What would you say, Nichole, are the 5 emotions, the 5 primary emotions, feelings, that you see in Jason?
Nichole: Um, 5, that seems like a lot. Um…
Teresa: Well look at your feelings list and see.
Nichole: Um, I think annoyed. Um, confident. Um, maybe concerned? And that sometimes has to do with, like, something he’s talking about at work. Um, I think alone. None of these others seem to fit him.
Teresa: Look on the second page.
Nichole: Oh, I didn’t know there was a second page. Um, proud. A little rebellious. Unappreciated. Puzzled.
Teresa: You said 5 was a lot. And you identified 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.
Me: Well, 5 was probably a lot when you don’t have a list in front of you. (laughing)
Nichole: Yeah.
Teresa: Mmhmm. Well and even on the first page she couldn’t come up with 5. But again, with an expanded list, it’s like ‘Okay, here’s some others right here’. So do you sense these things or do you see them visually?
Nichole: Um, I think some of them I sense.
Teresa: Which ones?
Nichole: Um, I think the “annoyed”. Um, but some of them, though, I hear…
Teresa: Do you see “confident” or do you sense “confident”?
Nichole: I think I sense “confident”.
Teresa: And what about “concern”? Do you see it or sense it?
Nichole: I hear it in some of the things he says. So I guess that may be sensing.
Teresa: That’s okay. What about “alone”?
Nichole: Again, I hear it in some of the things he talks about, when he’s talking about things like work.
Teresa: ‘kay. “Proud”?
Nichole: I think I see it in his behavior.
Teresa: Okay. “Rebellious”. “A little rebellious”.
Nichole: Heh, yeah. Just from stories he has. Heh.
Teresa: Hearsay. “Unappreciated”.
Nichole: Again from talking with him about stuff from–
Teresa: So you’re hearing it.
Nichole: Yeah.
Teresa: And “puzzled”.
Nichole: Yeah, I think it’s the same thing. When he talks about it.
Teresa: Hearing?
Nichole: Yeah.
Teresa: So, there is 1 on here that you see. Do you realize that? Out of 8, there is 1 she sees.
Nichole: Yeah.
Teresa: And 2 that she senses. That’s “annoyed” and “confident”. The one you see is “proud”. And everything else is hearing it. You are assigning things to what you’re hearing, which is a natural thing to do. ‘You know. That sounds to me like concern.’ You can hear that when he talks about these things he’s concerned. Would you say when you hear these things, that you’re hearing them at an emotional level or you’re hearing ’em because of the way he’s saying it. Does that make sense to you? Can you tell he’s concerned because of his tone of voice?
Nichole: No.
Teresa: It’s strictly the words.
Nichole: Yeah, and I think I maybe feed more into, you know, um, what else is going on.
Teresa: Okay, so you’re trying to dig deeper. He’s using words, and you want him to express emotions so you’re kinda trying to get confirmation even that that’s what’s happening.
Nichole: Yeah, I think I seem similar.
Me: She doesn’t usually do that through her words, though.
Teresa: How does she do it?
Me: I didn’t know that she did it. ’cause usually I feel like she’s not caring about what I’m saying or just sittin’ there and I’m boring her with this story, um, and so sometimes I’ll just stop ’cause I don’t want to just bore her with a boring story, um…
Teresa: So what she’s demonstrating to you is that she’s bored and really doesn’t care.
Me: Either that or she’s said before– she just starts getting annoyed herself, she seems like. And when I finally ask, “What’s wrong? Is this a bad time? Are you in a bad mood?” she says, “No, you’re just saying a bunch of negative things, and it’s getting me feeling negative, too.” And I’m like, “Well, I’m venting. Of course.” Like, “Can’t I vent to you without you getting negative, too?” (snicker)
Teresa: So, it is– there really just seems like there’s a combination of things going on here.
Me: And I enjoy talking about negative things. (snicker)
Teresa: Do you ever talk about positive things?
Me: I do, but more negative things stand out to me, so there’s more things to talk about. (snicker)
Teresa: Do you feel negative about those or you just want to discuss those?
Me: No it’s just– um, it’s like watching gossip on a reality show. They’re feeling negative but you’re not feeling negative about it. You’re just like, ‘Oh my gosh, look at them!’
Teresa: I don’t watch reality TV.
Me: Well, there’s a lot of drama on it. So the people in– it’s just like watching a movie and the people are having a bad experience in there, um, but you don’t really feel bad about it when you’re talking about it with someone afterwards.
Nichole: I have told him he likes drama. He likes to gossip. Which, he does. (laugh)
Teresa: Okay. Well, I think this is a really good distinction, because a lot of people don’t feel that way.
Me: Right, I know.
Teresa: They don’t find it entertainment.
Me: I know.
Teresa: You find it as entertainment. But a lot of people don’t. And I have to say that a lot of people in marriage have similar problems, where it’s like, “Why are you always watching this trash on TV? This is not– it’s just disgusting. It’s, y’know?”
Me: Mmhmm. I don’t watch it on TV. It’s boring on TV.
Nichole: It’s not TV, it’s his personal work stories. (laugh) And that’s what he comes home and vents about, is all the negative things that happened at work.
Teresa: Right, okay. The gossip, the crap, the– all of that, and you just don’t want– it’d be the same thing if he turned it on TV, right?
Nichole: Yeah.
Teresa: If he wants to watch the whatever, “The Real Housewives of Wherever”, right?
Nichole: Heh heh, yeah.

(continued in next entry due to lack of room)